Videospirit I just rechecked and it seems like the checkbox "Confronting Jhenno Before Meet Luanell" isn't working since I enter the section with 39 social and side with Jhenno on politics to get it to 40, the prompt for meeting luanell before confronting farnan also doesn't show up when using Jhenno to boost social to 40. Also, I have an expected ProN income of 5,567,000 and only 4,775,000 ProN worth of unbought investments, losing 50,000 ProN income from the mine income really doesn't seem critical at this point. But I don't know how big of a deal the 2 points of sabitha roleplay will be in the end, and I could easily just drop my ghenalon score and fheliel rp a bit to get it as well since ghenalon front of 29 isn't that much worse than 30+ at the end, or I could just go with the sanctity plate instead of the orc sphere and kill the orc champion instead of spare him. Not having the succubus tower expansion means you can't use the information against Donovan's claims either which could be important though. It's all theoretical until the game is finished really. first why ask help in politics? it's a waste. you shouldn't need the extra +1 tyna claim and the -1 suitor score for bhakan and farnan aren't valuable as much jhenno help in the synod. if you cannot scrap 40 social don't think the gain will outweigh the loss. your synod outcome will be? sabitha rp gain follow the same pattern of vhala gain, any point count, a lot, you can think roughly a vhala/sabitha +1 is like any other girl +5. and sabitha rp start builing very late compared vhala, so the threhsolds for her rp can be very rough for someone with sabitha not maximized [this heavily depend if SL want reward sabitha rp gains]. craft santity plate seem... take the obvious wrost choice for some very unremarkable gain and be hit by a crushing negative result. the plate is an equipment item, the main gain is a good item, the other effect of the plate are consolation prize for not make absolute worse options. like... avoid stark and alitina for a religion +1 in the chapter 2 daycount result, you can, but why? for the investment we have likely 3/4 ProN return with the mine in. this mean 200K down the line, enough to take a couple of minor investments without sacrificing anything. there always the possibility the choice will bite you back in the future, but without a forthcoming negative event, don't size the mine is basicaly lose something and gain nothing in return. all the future investment are like the new in zirantia and feroholm. milion and milion of ProN for lasting project, nothing for you to use.

Jhenno's help in the synod is not needed to maximize synod results, so I'd rather lower Jhenno's suitor score another point because we still have to deal with Jhenno's claim in the future. And since I'm asking for Jhenno's help with politics anyway may as well maximize pron by aiming for 39 social instead of 40 And I'm not saying getting the mine is a loss, I'm saying the Pron generation in my playthrough is so optimized that the mine may end up being nothing more than some extra sx in the end just because I have so many other sources of ProN. It might make buying the ruins before the war a viable option in order to get that 30/30/29 final score for the war. Or do you have some other route to reach 30/30/29 front scores in the war without the ruins open, without the sanctity plate, and without hq defense or tower delving research? I think I can do it if I steal Ginasta's supplies but I fail the fucklord confrontation check since the erosian front actually needs to be higher than 30 in the end for it to be 30 during the fucklord zirantia confrontation.

Hmm thought about what if I don't research orc diversity until after the war so I can get the needed tower front from hq defenses. Turns out it works. So max Sabitha rp optimization while passing every check worth passing after the third arclent war. http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=09082720969372663934 Can squeeze out a bit more Ginasta rp from siding with lynine or dominating varia instead of reshaping her, but probably enough ginasta rp already(has 1 ginasta during the war) and vhala doesn't like dominated varia. Could get an extra max Trin Copy by allowing Varia's rape, but right now it only needs 7 trin copies so I'm erring on avoiding pissing off the little girl. This should be very close to optimal until we learn more. Even bought orc democracy this way before it becomes blocked(slightly less total ProN than my previous saves because of that but still same income at the end)

Hmm, in my opinion it is best to research the new researches after the war (there will be more checks on them after they are available). For the researches I would rather not research tower defenses and instead use some Pron to invest in it. Having Orc diversity also helps during the second gathering. You get max Trin copies either way, whether you rape Varia or not so Trin copies shouldn't affect your decisions to let Varia get raped. Ginasta RP is tough since we don't know any future thresholds (if you got all free RP and didn't whore out Qum I'd say it's high enough). Orc democracy is nice since it seems to have a lot of uses in the future.

Max Trin copies is based on Trin's mood at certain points in the game. You can get to 7 max during aka's route regardless of whether you allow Varia's rape, but you won't hit 10 copies at the second checkpoint if you have saner altina and unraped varia unless you choose Trin as the first one you speak to after the reunion(And I need to speak to aka there to get her over 80 for the battle of yhilin). I think the only other option I could use for Trin relationship that isn't 100% sabotaging yourself is buying the deeds of vinario? And there are tons of things I'd rather spend 100000 pron on than buying the deeds. I was looking to see what orc diversity does for the second gathering and not having orc diversity researched doesn't seem to actually do much if you have every other bonus. 11 or less strength is only 1 less point in the orc competition than 12 strength and you have a point to spare in an optimal playthrough for the orc competition so that doesn't matter. It doesn't seem to do anything else in the calculator after the war, not even the Ralke transformation seems dependant on researching orc diversity.

Having 7 copies for Trin is enough for having best results during Aka's path. I still don't get why you want to invest RP in Trin, you don't need to have extra copies, she will eventually max out. Orc diversity is an upgrade that seems to have more of an effect story-wise than improving tower defences, hence not investing in tower defence and instead invest in orc diversity. Orc diversity is helpful in a lot of smaller checks and situations and in my opinion is not worth the Pron you would save. I was able to get all best outcomes in chapter 3-4, invest in ruins before the war and have researched orc diversity in my playthrough.

Did you skip investing in the succubus tower expansion to do it? That becomes locked out for investment after the war. Maybe if you skip the givini tunnels investment(Do the sanitation mages investment instead of premium steel before third arclent war) that would be possible hmm. Your ProN will take a massive hit if you do that, but it might be possible.

I invested in tower expansion and skipped givini tunnels (my only regret). I did premium steel during the reunion (after Simon's path) and did sanitation mages as it was available, I did only invest 50k Pron in Order of Silence however, you don't need more to have best score.

I can't hit 175 army size for the war and open the ruins before the war and have enough airships for the negotiations and have the tower expansion. But if I sacrifice the 175 army size I can just barely squeeze everything else in. I wouldn't call it optimal though, and you don't have all of the profitable elven investments bought before they get locked after the war. I much prefer not opening the ruins before the war and either researching hq defenses or tower delving to get tower score to 29+ during the war instead, or sacrificing ghenalon front to get tower score to 29. HQ defenses means no orc diversity researched, and tower delving means no construct bodies before the war though, but you have literal millions more ProN to work with by the first investment phase of chapter 5. If the sanitation mages endorsement of Tina ends up more important than it seems I may change this in the future though.

not having the ruins open before the war also means that tanurak will be able to attack erosia, which makes investments there less profitable. I don't recall if having an army size of 175 is necessary in order to get the best outcomes in the war. I find sanitation mages helpful for multiple decisions (Gawnfall, succession). There was something else sanitation mages was really helpful for, but I can't seem to recall what.

sanitation mages also gives you some extra ardoheim score so you can skip buying something else and still get second best discount on the ardoheim bank and is mandatory if you want to go for maximum discount on the ardoheim bank. I grab it on any unwhored qum order of silence 100k routes because of that(Needed for the best order of silence results in the thenoursian war which... isn't all that useful if you sided with no one in zirantia). First Investment Phase: 80k+5k from the bank to spend 25k Special Supplier 25k Mine Processing 25k Yhilin Bank 1 10k Stineford Magic shop Eats up my entire first phase income. Megail Route: 200k+20k for mine and bank to spend(Manufacturer mandatory) 25 Eustrin Manufacturer 25k Ardoheim Magic Trade 20k Aramite Supplier 100k Dwarren Ardoheim Embassy 50k Eustrin Processor Reunion and Summit: 1,570,000 ProN to spend 10k Incubus King Cache 20k Yhilin Supplier 450k Yhilin Bank 5k Iron Cudgel 10k Arigarda Bribe Summit: 1,075,000 ProN remaining + 100k merchant kickback 100k Join Merchant Guild 10k Unpeople Bribe 50k Order of Silence 450k Ivalan Bank 400k Ardan Bank Not Enough Ardoheim score without 1 more investment to get this price ProN left after optimal purchases for further optimization: 165000 Must Purchase 1 of Ardord Restaurant 25k or Sanitation Mages 100k Premium Steel needs 100k. Ardford Supplier Needs 50k(Lets you do worse in battle of yhilin if you want but won't pay for itself until chapter 5) Nothing Else is really worth buying. I'm pretty confidant this is the optimal spending up to that point except for that 165k at the end for unwhored Qum route.

Optimization Discussion

nklrzf

Videospirit Oh, yes. That was part of my concern, that clawing my way back into their good graces would burn so much of Sarai's influence that it would wreck the minor issues. But decent scores are still achievable, and so far, their Synod scores haven't come back (although they probably will when the Aram issue next rears its head).

The_Scoutman Yeah, it's probably a bug—I was going to play through to Eustrin Final for curiosity's sake, then message Sierra to detail what happens in case she wants to fix it.

There is a small, intended perk with the Double Deal: you get both priestesses' Deal bonuses in the Excommunication vote, before they realize your duplicity, which means you can get the best result for extra Influence plus the Olive Branch/Undermine choice with only Simon talking. Otherwise, with only one Deal, you need to either burn Annah's score by having Carina go after her for slavery; or you need two of Simon talking, Sarai's All In, and Jhenno's support. That's where I saved the influence I needed to later repair my relationship to the Aramites.

Even with [Kerannii Deal] turned off, it should be totally possible to achieve best results in all the major issues and be short one point of best for the minor issues. No worse than a normal, one-deal strategy—assuming [Kerannii Frozen] doesn't introduce too many extra penalties of its own.

nklrzf

I've checked and Kerannii does give her help during the Eustin Final State negotiations, which currently makes the Double Deal significantly better than other options as long as you're invested enough to make it work. You could probably work out an in-universe justification—I had to spend some influence getting Kerannii's score back up, so maybe she's softened on Simon—but it seems likely that this is a bug.

Iijil

I tried to do the Synod of Gawnfall without the Lustlord temples expansion, to free up that ProN while saving for the pre-war ruins opening. If you have most of the other preparations, it turns out you can still win everything: moderate reforms, all best results in major and minor votes (except the unavoidable Ardford ban second best), and the Annah score high enough for return to Stineford (you get 7).

Requirements: pass all the hidden stats, RP and quest checks, Sexual&Purity research done, invested in Order of Silence 50k, sanitation mages, Ivalan Bank and Lustlord Statues, Jhenno's help in Religion.

Day 1: Hester -> shape the world, Esmera deal, Kerannii no deal
Day 2: Jhenno -> Succubi vote
--Excommunication vote: Sarai -> normal, Simon -> silent, Carina -> talk against Annah, Success -> olive branch
--Unification vote: Sarai -> target Nabith, Simon -> Church Leadership
--Succubi vote: Yelarel -> discourage, Sarai -> all in, Simon -> Appeal to Esmera, Iris -> talk
Day 3: Yelarel -> moderate reform
--Ivalan succubi vote: Simon -> silent, ask everyone but Hester to support succubi joining
--Succubi join motion: Sarai -> normal, Simon -> appeal to Nabith, Riala -> talk
Day 4:
--Unpeople vote: Sarai -> normal, Simon -> silent, Robin -> don't talk, Yelarel -> light approach, Esmera -> refuse
--Tak'kan Vote: Sarai -> normal, Simon -> convince Kerannii
--Purity vote: Sarai -> support Kaskia, Simon -> silent, Yelarel -> let Andra talk, Qum -> show skill, Herin -> change standard
Day 5: Elleani -> Fucklord vote, Tyna -> Fucklord vote
--Fucklord vote: Herin -> speak against, Sarai -> influence Annah
--Promotion vote: happens
Minor Issues: 16 Sarai influence is enough to boost every issue, distribute the helpers to get the desired outcomes.

That should free up 750k ProN for more profitable investments.

ThomasBiemans

I'm currently on holiday, will take a look at it when I have time, but what investments were changed?

Videospirit

Hmm... I think not buying that means you lose 1 point on the succubi vote day 2, and 1 point on the succubi joins vote. I can see that being salvageable. It's worth looking into it, might be able to pull off a three banks ruins open before the war route by buying the givini tunnels instead of the temple and some other lower profit investments.

Iijil

I've played around with Thosha's playthrough, where the temple expansion can be replaced by theltiar rentals, theltiar flowhouse, new givini teahouse and ardford restaurant. That leads to a very satisfying 500 ProN remaining after investing during the Thenoursan War.

@Videospirit I'd love to have a look at some of your routes, to see how you handle things. Specifically 3 banks, or how you seem to fit in givini tunnels early in some of them. Could you share some of them again? The old tinyupload files seem to be expired 🙁

I've actually been looking at saving Carina's men in the horde battle. Clearly it is a mechanical loss, but letting them die still feels like a bad result. One possible goal to optimize for is avoiding bad events like this, so checking if saving them inevitably leads to other bad results down the road seems worthwhile.
So far I'm pretty happy with that run: all_good

I did not get the war monument/mage guild before the succession crisis. Seems fine since Donovan's suitor score drops to 0 in Return to Stineford anyway.
I did not research sex/purity magic first for the Ginasta RP. Hopefully that isn't needed.
I did not take the Aram Eustrin embassy before the Eurosian Crisis. The Aram Tower score it gives isn't useful so far and there are other ways to increase it if necessary (taking fewer captives)
I did get a "great" border incident. Seems very fitting for a run that tries to save everyone along the way. The 3 extra Aram points also allow me to reach the checks in the Council of Gawnfall without buying the embassy there. Note that I chose to reduce Aram CD further to fit the theme of the run, but you could stay in the 15 bracket for the embassy, even with a great border, increasing the price by only 50k compared to the usual 20 bracket. That price increase seems very worth it, since it allows me to buy it later. So far I didn't actually need to buy the embassy at all. I could still get final Eustrin at the first opportunity by choosing them as beneficiary of the airship trade.
I get the perfect Council of Gawnfall.
I opened the ruins before the war to eliminate Tanurak strikes. Mostly because those could be considered bad results on the same scale as Carina's men dying.
With 1 million ProN still available at the end of chapter 4 the only profitable investments I didn't get are the Theltiar Rentals, the Givini Mage Guild and Ardford's Mercenary Flotilla. Seems economically strong enough to handle the future, but of course we can't know yet.

Videospirit

The power cord for the pc that has the route saves on it lets off sparks and cuts out and its battery is dead so I've been avoiding using it. I'll remake the routes when another investment round or 2 has been added to the game. Been delaying playing with the the final chapter investments since we have no idea what any of them really do yet besides hidden scores.

I've abandoned Carina's men in all my optimal routes though. And the only way I get givini tunnels early is when I don't open the ruins until after the war. It earns me over 2 million extra ProN delaying the ruins until after the war.

Arachne

Suddenly crippled with doubt while planning a new route: If Simon cannot fight in the optional unforge fight (because no Essence Shielding), can he still reach level 34 in time for the Yhilin battle check? Assuming a normal route (not killing the Impaler, not spending one hundred days training during Simon's route).

Cazador

Arachne you can grab extra xp in the Orgasmic Empire by some forms of training, might want to take that into account in your calculations

Videospirit

You have no issues with level checks if that one fight is the only one you miss. You can grab an extra 400 or so xp if you save scum two tunnel explorations pre route split too.

Arachne

Okay, so... I think I've found a new route (at least it's new for me) that saves Carina's men, buys two banks in Chapter 2, achieve a "close enough to perfect" Chapter 3, and starts Chapter 4 with a 2,440,000 ProN production.

It's of course strictly worst than not saving Carina's men from a purely mechanical point of view... But the difference is way less pronounced that with my old route. Route wasn't bad per say but had to jump through quite a few hoops to compensate for its lower ProN input (it unironically bought the Anti-Corruption Campaign for example), while this one is more straightforward since money isn't as tight.

Here's the corresponding Calculator save. I can defend every choice made until the end of Chapter 3. After that, things become objectively more questionable, notably for some choices around the world shapers (Ginasta, Hester). But the end result is still quite solid on its feet, ending on a bang with a "perfect" Erosia War.

Investments for the first three chapters:

End of Chapter 1/Early Chapter 2: Yhilin Bank, Mine Processing, Cache excavation, Yhilini Public Works, Iron Cudgel, Magic Shop (remaining ProN: 0)
Megail's Route: Ardoheim Magic Trade/Yhilini Supplier/Aramite Supplier/Desert Bounty Office/Eustrin Supplier/Eustrin Manufacturer/Eustrin Embassy (remaining ProN: 0)
Chapter 2 post-reunion: Premium Steel Owner/Bridge Repair/Dusty Horde/AriGarda/Merchant's Guild Membership/Crystal Refiner/Ardford Restaurant/Sanitation Mages Guild/Ardan Bank (400,000)/Ivalan Bank/Order of Silence (10,000)/Deeds of Vinario (100,000) (remaining ProN: 0)
End of Chapter 3: New Givini Trade/Tak'Kan Trade/Chalice States Trade/Denmiel Mushrooms/Eustrin Guild/Yhilini Succubi Trade/Min's Trade Route (remaining ProN: 0; you might be noticing a theme here)

Shenanigans:

This route does not grant enough Megail RP early on for her to already be at 100 when she tells you her backstory. For that reason, Acceptance and Victory Points are a bit tighter than usual. This is compensated without any real downside by researching Yhilini Magic first and seizing the north site during the trade negociations.
The "choose your +5 girl" at the Reunion is irrelevant in this route (I've set it to Varia in my save to show off how little it mattered, since I don't remember Varia's RP ever being an issue). That is, unless you wish to have Nalili train with anyone but Aka, in which case it has to be Aka (or the Battle of Yhilin will take a sour turn).
The low Order of Silence score doesn't really change anything during any of the wars, but it does force an interesting choice: Asking Hester for her help for the succubi vote (and therefore not setting a switch that may be relevant eventually; and by eventually I mean "likely next update") OR Buying the Lustlord Temples prior to the Council OR Forsaking the best result on the merchant issue (that's just ProN, no need to spend 750,000 to save 250,000 if you have no use for the temples otherwise). Except for that, the Council seems as perfect as it can be.
The Yhilini Public Works is not a cosmetic investment, it eventually grants +2 Ginasta RP (by virtue of raising Janice's RP to the next threshold).
Similarly, there's a point in Chapter 4 where buying 3,500 ProN worth of statues grants 50,000 extra ProN at the next iteration (by virtue of reaching exactly the next Givini Orc Merchant threshold).

Iijil

Arachne (it unironically bought the Anti-Corruption Campaign for example)
The +1 Social is really strong. My own Save-Carinas-Men-Route would definitely pick that up if I wanted Jhennos help in Religion.

It is interesting that you research sex&purity first for the Ginasta RP and still go for the 80% Tak'Kan Vote. I have not tried to fit that into my own route yet. Something to look into 🙂
I see you get the ProN for that by skipping Airships entirely for the Erosian war. I'm not sure I'd take the loss in country scores myself. I think I'd rather go for a 66% Vote and lose the Orc Weapon. I guess at this point it comes down to personal preference.

Arachne The low Order of Silence score doesn't really change anything during any of the wars, but it does force an interesting choice: Asking Hester for her help for the succubi vote (and therefore not setting a switch that may be relevant eventually; and by eventually I mean "likely next update") OR Buying the Lustlord Temples prior to the Council OR Forsaking the best result on the merchant issue (that's just ProN, no need to spend 750,000 to save 250,000 if you have no use for the temples otherwise). Except for that, the Council seems as perfect as it can be.

You can also get the Hester World Shaper option without buying the Lustlord Temples by having Simon speak about Church Leadership during the Unity Vote. You don't keep the deal with Esmera, but in the conversation with her afterwards she agrees to keep working with you anyway. So I don't think that will matter later, aside from the influence loss. Doing this you also don't need the Givini Tunnels for the Tak'Kan Vote (but if you skip it you have to pick up Givini Smithing for Elleani RP).

Iijil

Yeah, the large army turns out to be a complicated way to pay 17500 ProN for +2 Yhilin. I went for it because I couldn't find anything profitable to do with the ProN and I do prioritize missable country scores maybe more than I should.

Arachne I can defend every choice made until the end of Chapter 3.

Why do you pick up Succubus Immigration instead of Fancy Walk? The latter is cheaper and gives more acceptance. None of the other benefits of Succubus Immigration seem to matter.

I've noticed a potential way to save some ProN before the 3rd Arclent War: If we take Jhennos support in Religion and want to pick up the Givini Tunnels for ProN returns anyway, then we can ace the Council of Gawnfall by investing 50k in the Order if Silence instead of investing in the Sanitation Mages. The Order frees up Jhenno to bicker with Hester and the Influence can be used to go all in for the Tak'Kan vote. That vote can then be won by appealing to Kerannii. We can get Annah to 7 during the Fucklord vote.

Arachne

Iijil

It is interesting that you research sex&purity first for the Ginasta RP and still go for the 80% Tak'Kan Vote.

This is a perfectly reasonable decision based on pure, cold logic. Totally not influenced by the fact Ginasta and Grubbak are some of my favorite characters.

Though this route manages to trigger Eustrin final negotiations without needing to buy the Aram Eustrin Embassy (I'll likely still buy it just before the negotiations just for the shiny numbers however), so I'm reasonably confident that skipping the +1 Aram/+1 Eustrin/+3 Neranda RP from the elven negotiations likely won't matter much.

You can also get the Hester World Shaper option without buying the Lustlord Temples by having Simon speak about Church Leadership during the Unity Vote. You don't keep the deal with Esmera, but in the conversation with her afterwards she agrees to keep working with you anyway.

Aside from the fact Esmera is the worst negotiator ever, there's still an influence point missing no? You save 2 by not saving to target Nabith during the unity vote, but you lose 3 due to needing for Sarai to go all in the next vote.

Iijil

Arachne Aside from the fact Esmera is the worst negotiator ever, there's still an influence point missing no? You save 2 by not saving to target Nabith during the unity vote, but you lose 3 due to needing for Sarai to go all in the next vote.

hmm, yeah you'd need to make some further changes that aren't obvious: You keep targeting Nabith with Sarai during the unity vote, and switch Jhenno to help with unity to gain +2 influence from the top result. In the next vote Sarai goes all in (-3 Influence) and Simon appeals to Nabith to get top result without Hester and Jhenno. The Nabith score allows Orcent to speak automatically (+2 Influence). Simon also needs to appeal to Nabith instead of Annah for the Succubi join vote. You'd have an extra Influence to let Sarai target someone during the Fucklord vote.

It's probably better to just share a calculator save where I use this approach. (Just with higher Order score instead of Jhennos help)

In there you can also see a fun way I found to go through chapter 1-3. I hired the Dusty Horde instead of Iron Cudgel to save Carinas men. That gives an extra victory point in the Battle for Yhilin, which allowed me to finish it with a large army (33), 19 VP and only one required chaos cleanup. I could then go on to give my orcs strength instead of discipline to further grow my army, only missing one acceptance from Orcents evaluation. That got my army into the 200+ bracket for the third arclent war, allowing me to skip the Ardoheim Border Reinforcement, while still preventing Feroholm deaths.

But while that is fancy, your route shows that I lose more ProN than I thought by skipping Premium Steel. So I'm currently looking into some sort of hybrid 🙂

Arachne

hmm, yeah you'd need to make some further changes that aren't obvious: You keep targeting Nabith with Sarai during the unity vote, and switch Jhenno to help with unity to gain +2 influence from the top result. In the next vote Sarai goes all in (-3 Influence) and Simon appeals to Nabith to get top result without Hester and Jhenno. The Nabith score allows Orcent to speak automatically (+2 Influence). Simon also needs to appeal to Nabith instead of Annah for the Succubi join vote. You'd have an extra Influence to let Sarai target someone during the Fucklord vote.

Damn, it works. I had checked the boxes too quickly and completely missed I was in a configuration where I needed to give up some influence for Orcent to talk, and there was a potential save here.

It's impossible to know at the moment which of the church-related variables will be meaningful in the future (never Hester - shaper world or Esmera Kept Deal are used anywhere for now if I read the wiki right), but this particular combination is definitely an option to consider. Heck, you can even end with Esmera at 10+ in spite of double-crossing her if you use the extra Sarai influence to target her. Thanks.

That got my army into the 200+ bracket for the third arclent war, allowing me to skip the Ardoheim Border Reinforcement, while still preventing Feroholm deaths.

TLS has several jokes about the fact that it's not because you can make something bigger that it's a good idea to, and my personal feeling is that it's particularly true regarding Army Size. While pushing it up the next bracket makes for some interesting theorycraft, it requires so much resources that I'm really not convinced that the juice is worth the squeeze.

Arachne

Hey, even with infinite ProN, you sometimes get terrible results because you forgot to talk to a NPC, that the secret stat point they gave was needed to pass a check that in turn granted more points... And snowball until a war that started great turns into a disaster.

Several attempts have been made in the past at establishing an optimized route that was good enough for everybody... And mostly proved that everyone had their own opinion on what results one should strike for and which ones can be disregarded.

Still, maybe we could still improve the general walkthrough to be more opinionated about the places were some choices are just traps that should be avoided (like at the start of Chapter 2 were there is really no point but shooting oneself in the foot to skipping Altina or Stark or entering the slime infested merchant camp).

[yeah I know, I'm ranting about this section, but it deserves it]

Iijil

Why do you pick up Succubus Immigration instead of Fancy Walk? The latter is cheaper and gives more acceptance. None of the other benefits of Succubus Immigration seem to matter.

Unless that page is wrong, the succubus guild fees are mandatory to unlock the national succubus trade. And the both of them together are a 70% +3 Acceptance +6 Economy +2 Yhilin +5 Army Size, which is not bad at all.

I've noticed a potential way to save some ProN before the 3rd Arclent War: If we take Jhennos support in Religion and want to pick up the Givini Tunnels for ProN returns anyway, then we can ace the Council of Gawnfall by investing 50k in the Order if Silence instead of investing in the Sanitation Mages. The Order frees up Jhenno to bicker with Hester and the Influence can be used to go all in for the Tak'Kan vote. That vote can then be won by appealing to Kerannii. We can get Annah to 7 during the Fucklord vote.

Being able to skip the Sanitation Guild without bad consequences actually open an interesting alternative strategy:

Invest 100,000 in the Order of Silence instead of 10,000.
Actually be 10,000 richer in the short term, and 5,000 richer at the end of the war, so Chapter 3 remains unchanged.
Before the council, instead of buying the Mage Guild, buy most of the small but useful things you're still missing (like the Givini Smith and the Theltiar Rentals in my route).
Apply the strategy you just detailed to still ace the council
Do as much good in the war in spite of New Givini Score being less than 50 and having no mage guild thanks to the Order of Silence being awesome
Actually have enough money to buy the smith during the war
Finally buy the guild by the end of the chapter
Profit?

Sesquame

Is there a more up-to-date optimization/investing guide anywhere? The only investing guide on the wiki is hilariously out of date. I only just learned how to use the calculator at all, and honestly going through this thread isn't helping me do Babby's First Optimized Run. My first playthrough ended up dying in the Erosian War because I started losing most of the checks, and honestly I can't really handle the FOMO or whatever you'd call the stress of having "done it wrong", so I've been trying to find routes that get through the first three chapters "correctly" or at least have a few different options where I understand the pros and cons of each.

I'd be a lot more able to mess around and try to play the game properly if I at least had the ability to set up some start-of-chapter-4 saves where I don't need to worry about what I missed beforehand. What posts or resources should I be looking at to help me decide on the "correct" choices for a 2nd playthrough? Trying to read through the thread myself hasn't really helped since I'm not following a lot of the baked in assumptions when people discuss since I don't know Gawnfall inside and out and that apparently has a huge effect on what Ardford investments to make.

Iijil

Sesquame
I can recommend following Thosha's playthrough. Everything you need to do for a very good playthrough is included. It might not be "optimized" because it is basically impossible to even agree what optimization means for the game. But even if you want to try to find something "better" later it is still a great starting point to see what can be achieved. You will be adequately prepared for all events.

Fulminato

Sesquame I'd be a lot more able to mess around and try to play the game properly if I at least had the ability to set up some start-of-chapter-4 saves where I don't need to worry about what I missed beforehand. What posts or resources should I be looking at to help me decide on the "correct" choices for a 2nd playthrough? Trying to read through the thread myself hasn't really helped since I'm not following a lot of the baked in assumptions when people discuss since I don't know Gawnfall inside and out and that apparently has a huge effect on what Ardford investments to make.

this is sadly impossibile, decision done in the first investement round can have an huge effect after, for example any early social gain is translate in less 100K+ investment to do to reach the social 40 treshold relevant in some chapter 4 event.
so thing like repair the bridge or fund the anti corruption campaign can be pivotal in the optimization (or not)

for making a good optimization you need to familiarize with the math inside the game, and the relevant threshold you must reach for gaining the important switches, the game works around this two thing, the hardest parts for the optimization are the first investment cycle and the chapters 3 and 4, starting with the Battle of Yhilin (BoY) the arclentian war (3AW) and the events in chapter 4 (succession crisis, erosia perlude, synod and erosia invasion)

the three chapter 3 trips (elven forest, zirantia and eustrin) are basicaly set in stone, the only decision you will make is lynine/orilise double choice, but for an optimizing point of view lynine then orilise is superior in nearly any aspect.

if you want an already done walkthrough you can take the one make by thosha (already linked above) or use my own (it's more a ultra condensed list of the choice that matters)

ciurra

Sesquame i would really like a mod to see in game my scores and the various tresholds that are waiting for me

Grim8P

Iijil My wife and I just caught up to the new content using Thosha's guide. Having played once before I feel like it does a good job with decisions but the guide itself lacks detail in some places.

I'm actually interested in writing my own playthrough pulling for various sources but the optimization question gets rattled around a lot in my brain. I have skimmed parts of this thread before to get a sense of things and I've now played through the game twice but I still think I'll end up spending more time thinking on this than it'll take for me to generate the text itself.

I'm sure the people here are aware but it is a bit difficult because the game is still changing. Thosha's guide has you invest in the War Monument for the extra leverage against Donovan. The New Givini Mage Guild does the same thing for the same cost and contributes the same in the Erosian War. It now also grants benefits during The Warden of the South event and in the Incubus War event. I can't think of a benefit the War Monument gives that the New Givini Mage Guild does not (although I could be wrong). This isn't a slight against Thosha though. There was no way to know this when the guide was written. I could make this change in my guide but maybe the War Monument ends up with some other benefit further down the line as well.

I think I'm going to begin drafting the guide anyway since the optimization decisions won't change a significant amount of the text compared to the entire guide but decisions will have to be made and I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say if this interests anyone.

DukeLeto7

Some people might wonder why I don't contribute to these discussions.

It is definitely because I operate on a sublime level beyond the understanding of mere mortals and not at all because I use the save editor to get extra ProN. The latter is a lie and I don't know how these runors get started.

Videospirit

Yeah, if you want a perfect save that does the greatest on everything, the only option is to cheat.

I wouldn't feel bad about it if you get stressed out by missing things.

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