Enemies tables uniformity

Fulminato

The tables for enemies weakness and resistance in the walkthrough page (and in other places) need some care and uniformity of design. i think is better to canonized their structure.

my proposal is:

Enemy name
Elements Weakness
Elements Resistance
Statuses Resistance
Statuses Immunuity

with the exact numbers after each element/status.

sera

So a couple of days ago I discovered there was actually an Enemies page that had more or less been abandoned since last year, and their tables included Names, Images, Weaknesses, Resistances, Miscellaneous Information, and Lore. It was missing a lot of information and didn't really go beyond the beginning of Chapter 2, so I've been slowly adding in complete data and reformatting it so it's all standardized.

I did add an Immunity column, but so far I've kept Elemental Resistance and Status Resistance in the same column, just on different lines. It'd probably be easy enough to split them apart. TBH the Lore column is probably unnecessary but I had a lot of fun filling it with quotes from the game so I kept it in.

https://thelastsovereign.miraheze.org/wiki/Enemies
In any case, rows of data from this page could probably be pretty easily copied to other pages.

Images are kinda iffy from a copyright perspective, given that a lot of them are RPGM assets or someone's art, but it's probably not any more egregious than all the other images on the wiki. Anyhow, if someone could figure out how to keep the images to a standardized size instead of the wildly fluctuating sizes they are right now, that'd be peachy.

Decanter

I think Fulminato's proposal is sound.

It may also be good if we could keep resistances and immunities in some order, maybe mentioning biggest resistance/weakness first.

In general I think the enemy list is neglected because DukeLeto7 releases that enemy stats PDF regularly, so it's somewhat a duplication of effort. If we could get him to make a thread for that, and link to it from the top of the Enemies page, that would be nice.

Lore column is unnecessary but I don't see any harm since we have much more horizontal space on the new wiki. On the other hand, some of the quotes are rather tenuously related, and the Notes column could take up more space than it does now.

I feel enemy images are wholly unnecessary to be honest, and players can just look them up by name. They add "spice" to the Bosses page, but for the Enemies page I think it is not a worthwhile use of vertical space (or our host's disk space). Unless anyone objects, I would propose to remove and delete them.

Or rather, players could look up enemies by name if the enemy tables weren't collapsed by default. That should also be changed,

Cazador

I support removing the enemies pictures.

sera

I, uh, may not have been aware there was a PDF. 😅

I've been ordering Weaknesses/Resistances by value so far (biggest weakness/smallest resistance first) and generally tried to keep the order of equal values consistent.

It'd be easy enough to remove the images from that page, just need to delete the Images column from each table. Slightly more annoying is deleting all the file pages, unless there's a way of pruning media that isn't used in any page. Getting rid of the collapsible is a good idea, I'll do that from now on.

With images removed, that opens up a lot more space. If y'all think Elemental Resistance and Status Resistance should both get their own column, there shouldn't be any issue on that front.

Fulminato

sera i propose the separation between elements and statuses mainly for handle the double poison entry.

SotterPapaioannou

Fulminato Or we could use Poison(E) and Poison(S) to distinguish between the two.

sera

SotterPapaioannou I do like that idea for the immunity column. Currently, the Resistances column has something similar, with information organized like so:

Elemental: Physical, Sex, Poison...

Status: Poison, Blind, Silence....

Due to the difference between how Element resistance and Status resistance works, sorting them all together based on value seems like it would be confusing, so I'd prefer to keep it like it is or split it into two columns.

SotterPapaioannou

sera I have no issue with either idea.

BleBle

I am fine with the proposition

DukeLeto7

I assumed the forum post with the enemies PDF link would be migrated over in the near future, so I hadn't bothered to repost.

Here it is if anyone needs it. http://www.mediafire.com/file/jct1ydamkd6bcyh/Enemies.pdf/file

If y'all get a standardized table format for an enemies page, I should be able to make a means of automatically generating it, probably with the notes and table headers. I'm hoping to be done with the project that's been eating my time soon. Note that enemy images are a combination of "base" pictures and tint codes that allow different color schemes, so unless you go to the trouble of screencapping the stupid things, you can't really get all the images from the game files.

Also note that there isn't really a hard and fast distinction between bosses and regular enemies, because I don't think the collapse effect happens consistently.

I'm in favor of trashing the lore column.

sera

So I did go through the trouble of taking a bunch of screenshots for all the tinted Chapter 1 & 2 enemies.....which is why I'm very happy to do away with images altogether. They really didn't add enough value to justify the work.

I don't have any strong feelings about the Lore column. If someone else is really passionate about it for some reason, they can take it, but I I'll take your suggestion and get rid of it.

Bosses and normal enemies aren't clearly delineated, but I don't think they need to be? For the purposes of these tables I figured it was fine to list everything together and put up a link to the Bosses page on the name of any enemy that had an entry there.

The columns as it stands are therefore Name, Weakness, Elemental Resistance, Status Resistance, Immunity, and Misc/Notes. I've started working on Fulminato's suggestion in their original post to add exact values to weaknesses/resistances, but it's slow going. If you've got the tools to automate the process, I'm perfectly happy to let robots take our jobs.

sera

Also, thanks for the PDF 😀

DukeLeto7

Decanter said we could use images as "spice" for bosses, implying a separate bosses page. My own view is that spice should be conserved.

Apropos of nothing, does SotterPapaioannou = Sotter in the previous forum?

SotterPapaioannou

DukeLeto7 That's exactly right.

Fulminato

usualy enemy name + location/chapter is enough to uniquely define everything outside tower nodes, in this case a note about the color of the node is necessary. i don't have any real opinion about lore column.

Cazador

There's indeed a separate Bosses page, which dwelves a lot more on strategy. I think they're delineated clearly enough that we see who is a common ennemy and who is a boss. If anyone is having trouble we could write up a list of criteria, like "being a single, strong fight at a key point of the area, usually introduced with some dialogue".

Fulminato

Cazador i think dukeleto7 was talking about an automatic system to implement in the pdf creation for discretize between "boss" and "not boss" enemy,

DukeLeto7

Fulminato is correct. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

Also, the reply with quote feature on this forum is busted on my mobile device.

Dmitry

DukeLeto7 Also, the reply with quote feature on this forum is busted on my mobile device.

I would like to know exactly how it is broken since it appears to work for my device (this reply was done on a pixel 2)

DukeLeto7

Dmitry

Testing...