Revisiting Past Choices

Battlewarrior

I doubt that there is one true path to playing TLS; this rings true especially for things like investments. However, two things seem to be universal to almost everyone's optimal playthrough: support the NUP rather than OZL, and have the succubi accepted instead of the church diverge or the new religion scenario.

However, with the release of Incubus War Aftermath, I think this certainity is no longer so certain. Supporting the OZL grants you the possibility of acquiring a Liquid Sex, while diverging the Church or creating a new religion provides massive benefits.

What do you all think?

Fulminato

Battlewarrior they are at best consolation prize. not remotely enough to counterbalance the gain of the established choices.

and I would not define new religion bonus "massive". they are 'ok' at best. however succubi accepted isn't an hindrance in any given situation.

ForceofNature

In a more objective sense, having the Succubi Accepted in and the NUP in power also remain the superior choices from a story perspective, since it fit's with Simon and co.'s goals to a much higher degree
Even if doing something like whoring Qum was statistically superior, most players still wouldn't do it, because even if it wasn't reflected in the switches and numbers, it was reflected in the story as a bad choice. The same goes for the church and zirantian situations.
You can still ace the Incubus War with an accepted church, and I really doubt that losing out on a single item upgrade will ruin any player's playthrough. The world is still a better place with the two classically favored choices, and in the end, isn't that the goal?

Battlewarrior

Whoring Qum isn't necessarily statistically superior, mainly because of the RP hits with, well, almost everyone who knows about it.

ForceofNature

Battlewarrior I know, I said IF it was statistically superior, people still wouldn't do it

Cazador

Tbh I supported the OZL despite it being the inferior option, because I felt the section just before that choice was really preachy, and I disliked it. Like an hamfisted attempt to shove an unnuanced political message in my throat. I can take a few stat hits for it, Uolian's my boy now.

Fulminato

Cazador sorry, but no. simply no.

The_Scoutman

Cazador The only thing I don't really like about the political side of Zirantia was how the premise was of a multipartisan nation but the game's story then pretty much boiled it down entirely just to conservatives vs progressists.

And yes, most multipartisan nations still suffer with political polarization and there is the forming of coalitions, but why even bother adding that detail to the lore if ultimately Zirantia's politics never got a more in-depth development and it is treated ingame as a purely bipartisan dispute. I guess it was only there so we could get the Monty Python gag about confusing party names with the People's Action Party or whatever it was called.

Battlewarrior

ForceofNature I don't remember Simon and co throwing their enemies into a prison to grind them down before (trying to) killing them. That's the PAP. Well, and Hester, but mostly the PAP for ch 3.
Point understood though. The NUP's scheme isn't the worst, and the likes of Iris springing troubles in Stineford to force Donovan to return may be roughly on par with that.
Cazador I agree that political parties in Zirantia aren't very deep, but frankly I don't think there are many instances in which Simon and co would actually give a damn about them. Zirantia is, quoting Esthera, "a weak nation already sorely tested". Simon and co are probably more concerned about building New Givini, Tak'kan, and the Chalice States, stabilizing Yhilin, and pacifying Aram and Ardoheim. I still hope they could play a greater role though. Maybe the PAP or the NAP launches a coup during the Great Thenoursan War or the Incubus War. Maybe the OZL and the NUP agree to a temporary alliance to fend off the airships during the Incubus War Aftermath. Anything to point that they just aren't sidelined.

Videospirit

The_Scoutman Zirantian politics suffers from it all being basically new to them too. Simon has knowledge of Zirantian politics from less than a generation before and it's all completely obsolete by game start.

And there aren't a lot of political ideologies in the setting to branch out the parties more even if things were more established.

Battlewarrior

I wish SL would delve deeper into how almost every party in Zirantia are arseholes. Sure, the NAP tried to get Simon to screw over a couple girls and the PAP actually plunged Simon and co into the ordeal, but let's not forget how Uolian tried to take advantage by having Simon and co clear an ancient ruin (benign enough, I guess) while Biyue literally attempted to entice them to breaking the law and had plans to blackmail them with it. In the game, especially ch4 and ch5, all we get is OZL good, NUP better, PAP and NAP trash.

ForceofNature

Battlewarrior I wouldn't exactly call Biyue's plan "blackmail", she wasn't trying to coerce Simon into doing anything for her, just set up a scenario where she saved him to prove herself a reliable ally.
Simon and co. are just as manipulative as the worst of the zirantian political parties. The zirantians just aren't as good at it.

Don't know why some of yall have such a problem with the NUP. They tried to manipulate Simon when they (rightfully) thought that they were dealing with a raping, conquering, brutish Incubus King's underlings, and when they found out that wasn't the case they turned out to be reliable and loyal allies ever since.

Agumentic

Personally, I think there's a good reason to support NUP just from a pragmatic viewpoint - a weaker party that you helped to come to power will need more support and thus be more open to influence, regardless of what exactly you want to influence. It's also why Kalant is my choice to marry Tyna - love and compatibility are all well and good, but a young hero that Simon practically mentored will listen to his opinion a lot more than a grown nobleman.

ForceofNature

Battlewarrior Simon and his personal global magical illuminati has done some shady shit, which I'd say is at least as bad as attempting to shadily kill a political foe by dropping them into a monster-filled dungeon. Including but not limited to:
-Killing and replacing major political figures with remote-controlled meat puppets, some of which really didn't deserve it
-Threatening the government and church of Stineford into accepting his policies under threat of an invasion
-Invading a country with an army of barely controlled orcs and ruthlessly murdering anyone likely to oppose his grab for power
At least as ruthless as the PAP's assassination attempt, I'd say.
But Simon gets the benefit of the doubt, because we as the player know that he is reasonable and that all of his actions are for the good of the world, and we see the positive effects of his choices. But if you were a regular citizen in the world of TLS who randomly found out how much Simon really controls, and the things he has done to get there, you would freak the fuck out. He's absolutely terrifying, if you aren't on his side

Fulminato

ForceofNature i think the difference between simon and, said yuanuon, is the fact of simon don't take is righteful place of power, but working as servant of that power. and yuanuon said to the divine claw try to save his sorry ass from a sound beating "I'll remember this when I rule Zirantia!"

it's not in the actions "per se" the difference between simon and other, but in the frame that actions are done.

QiQi

Let's not kid ourselves: EVERYONE is shaddy, Simon is just the latest of the bunch, who is also the most successful, along with having the potential moral high ground because we follow him.
As he said, 'You all seem willing to take the moral highground, you can keep it' or something.