reasoning behind Simon's more "evil" actions

AntonEgo

Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind the more "evil" actions that Simon can take? Whoring cum, letting Varia get raped etc. Didn't play those paths but they seem extremely out of character and have no real payoff (10k or something for sexually exploiting a mentally disabled person for monetary gain and letting a woman get raped to have an easier time fighting an extremely easy fight).

Things like this make the "Simon is a psycho" theories far more believable, and make me actually agree with some of the points they have.

The_Scoutman

AntonEgo I think the decision to whore Qum mostly comes, in lore, from a potential lack of understanding about succubi from Simon. Could be easy to think sex can't be deeply unpleasant or traumatizing for what he thought were literal sex demons. Even being extremely pragmatic I don't think Simon would have agreed to it if he knew how it would affect Qum, even though 15k WAS a lot of money at that point in the story.

For Varia, being fair, she was the leader of a bandit group that according to Aka was responsible for a lot of crime in the area, including murder and rape. And she did try to kill the entire party with bombs. Twice. Simon is stern enough that he doesn't seem entirely opposed to vengeful justice in some situations (i.e letting someone like the Fucklord be tortured). Had Varia not revealed her trauma and subjected herself to mental reshaping, at her own request, Simon wouldn't have been so keen on adding her to the harem, she would probably have either been delivered in exchange for the bounty or even executed. Also the entire bandit gang fighting at full energy was not an "easy fight" at that point in the story.

In sum, most of the "evil" decisions are just ruthless or ill-advised, with a side of apparent pragmatical benefits. I think Simon might express some regrets about them if you play those paths, in particular during the talk with the little girl.

AntonEgo

The_Scoutman I think Simon might express some regrets about them if you play those paths, in particular during the talk with the little girl.

That's exactly what i want to know, how does he respond to criticism of these actions, how does he justify them? These are not the only examples, he kills the alcohol merchant at Stineford for no gain at all, he could easily steal it without him noticing or overpower and knock him out, instead he kills him in cold blood and then hypocritically sells that alcohol himself, there are a lot of moments in the story that make Simon look quite bad.

And the Qum argument, in my opinion and according to my memory, doesn't work at all, she clearly states that she does not want to but he convinces her to do it (important to remember here is that she is mentally ill and as such cannot be held up to the same level of autonomy, the "she chose to do this herself" argument does not apply here).

And Varia, well, the "she deserves it" argument works only if Simon is a cruel megalomaniac who thinks that only he deserves to chose who and how should be punished, criminals rarely become the way they are due to a nice and fulfilling life and treating her this way is far to similar to her own actions, that of a criminal. Oh, and the fight really is easy, i just use sexual haze from Yarra once and then the fight is over.

The_Scoutman

AntonEgo That's exactly what i want to know, how does he respond to criticism of these actions, how does he justify them?

I haven't played the full game with those choices so I won't be able to point out many instances, I will only use excerpts from the little girl conversation because I knew where to look for those, these justifications are left up to player choice, I will list each variation through bullet points:

LG: I've been wanting to ask: you made Qum work at a brothel. Why?

Choice: I didn't force her, she agreed
LG: Given how she worshipped you and what she'd been through? Not really.
Choice: We needed the money
LG: An honest answer, at least.
Choice: I thought it would help more people in the end
LG: I hope you're right.
Choice: It was a mistake I regret
LG: It's good that you can admit mistakes.
Simon: ...

LG: Another question: why did you allow Varia to be raped?

Choice: It was expedient
Simon: We were weak and couldn't be sure of fighting that many bandits.
LG: Hmm...
Choice: It was justice
Simon: She'd done worse to many other people.
LG: Harsh.

AntonEgo These are not the only examples, he kills the alcohol merchant at Stineford for no gain at all, he could easily steal it without him noticing or overpower and knock him out, instead he kills him in cold blood and then hypocritically sells that alcohol himself, there are a lot of moments in the story that make Simon look quite bad.

I don't think any of those options would have been "easy", early chapter 1 Simon was hardly more than a competent veteran soldier, Yarra was a competent succubus but not super magically proficient (didn't have super powerful illusions nor lust coma skills), and Qum did things intuitively. They did not have the means to loot the entire storage of a bar without alerting the owner. Knocking him out wouldn't have been a risk-free plan either, he could recognize them before getting attacked or wake up earlier than planned and if he reported Simon then the church would have him investigated or at the very least cut ties with him, which would have been disastrous for the plans.

Also certain sale practices can be more predatory than others, even if they are handling the same product. The bartender in Feroholm was knowingly selling to addicts that were in a desperate situation. I suppose Simon didn't really research if the guy he sold the alcohol to was more ethical about his distribution but at least there was a chance it didn't end in vulnerable communities.

AntonEgo And the Qum argument, in my opinion and according to my memory, doesn't work at all, she clearly states that she does not want to but he convinces her to do it (important to remember here is that she is mentally ill and as such cannot be held up to the same level of autonomy, the "she chose to do this herself" argument does not apply here).

The little girl agrees with what you are saying and so do I, but my argument was more about there being a difference between not wanting to do something and being disturbed by having to do it. Considering Simon's previous perception of succubi and Yarra's general behavior at that point, he could have mistakenly thought it was like telling Qum to "eat her vegetables" or "do her homework", she didn't want to do it but it wouldn't traumatize her or anything. In hindsight, this would have been obviously wrong, but I can imagine such a mistake being made with the way succubi are portrayed in the game.

AntonEgo And Varia, well, the "she deserves it" argument works only if Simon is a cruel megalomaniac who thinks that only he deserves to chose who and how should be punished, criminals rarely become the way they are due to a nice and fulfilling life and treating her this way is far to similar to her own actions, that of a criminal. Oh, and the fight really is easy, i just use sexual haze from Yarra once and then the fight is over.

Okay so, you do realize the game is called "The Last Sovereign", and Chapter 4 is called "Arbiter", it is not that Simon thinks he is the only one that deserves to make decisions over others, but someone has to do it and he has the power to be that someone. I wouldn't necessarily say that is a megalomaniacal thing, but almost the entire premise of this game is acquiring power and using it to overrule the current powers that be and then try to make better decisions, because the current situation for a lot of people needs improvements.

With that aside, my point wasn't that Simon "forgave" Varia because she was a criminal with a sob story, but because she asked him to litterally reshape her mind, Simon could forgive her because he knew after what he did to her that she wouldn't be a threat to them or any other innocents, she was instantly "reformed" but it cost her some of her former self, and yes, this applies to both the "Dominated Varia" and the "Reshaped Varia", the only difference is that in the first one Simon remakes her with a more utilitarian view, while with the later he tries to preserve some of her original self by remaking her closer to what was already there.

Also don't confuse a "mechanically easy" fight with a "story easy" fight, half of the party argues that fighting all those bandits in a cramped room would be really dangerous, you can maybe argue with the dev that they should make this fight harder mechanically to match the intent of the story, but the intent of the story is still that it should have been a challenge, going the extra mile to protect a woman who was responsible for a lot of fucked up stuff and tried to kill you and some of your loved ones twice already.

DukeLeto7

I'd quibble on the classification of Qum as "mentally ill" as opposed to "somewhat intellectually disabled", but six of one, half dozen of the other so far as personal agency is concerned.

Whoring Qum and allowing the rape of Varia are things that you are asked to justify to the Strange Little Girl if you do them, and she isn't impressed with your answers.

Insofar as the Feroholm bar owner goes, it might help clarify Simon's motive for killing him if you cross off the words "alcohol merchant" and replace them with "drug dealer". We normalize the sale of alcohol in most western countries, but it definitely is a narcotic, and it will kill you if you abuse it. The thing Simon finds objectionable is marketing the booze to the destitute and desperate.

AntonEgo

The_Scoutman Okay so, you do realize the game is called "The Last Sovereign", and Chapter 4 is called "Arbiter", it is not that Simon thinks he is the only one that deserves to make decisions over others, but someone has to do it and he has the power to be that someone. I wouldn't necessarily say that is a megalomaniacal thing, but almost the entire premise of this game is acquiring power and using it to overrule the current powers that be and then try to make better decisions, because the current situation for a lot of people needs improvements.

It just doesn't feel to me that Simon has enough opposition, and i am playing a "good" walkthrough with decent-good results in every conflict, if Simon doesn't get questioned in the "evil" poor-medium results campaign then it seems either like poor writing or very suspicious of Simon not abusing his shard. Maybe it's just me wishing more of the game but it seems as if Simon got off far to easy in far to many situations, Ginasta is the only main character that brings up the less savory moments and she is already in our control, and since Ivala is captured it's hard to say that she was just guiding him so thoroughly that she was the one to give him such massive support from such massive players so early on (Megail, Esthera, Sarai etc.).

Cazador

There's also the Altina choice, and the Estaven torture. In the later case, it's a tradeoff, a mechanical advantage vs an abstract principle.

It's also been pointed out by critics that Cumdump being so traumatized by the gangbang was, well, hard to foresee. She's a succubus called Cumdump, so... If players could wrongly think she'd be more okay with it, it's possible to assume it would also be the case for Simon.

AntonEgo

Cazador It's also been pointed out by critics that Cumdump being so traumatized by the gangbang was, well, hard to foresee. She's a succubus called Cumdump, so... If players could wrongly think she'd be more okay with it, it's possible to assume it would also be the case for Simon.

Btw can you explain to me why she was so hard against it? I avoided that option because it was clear that she didn't want to, but i have no idea why she wouldn't want to. All the succubus we see later on are exactly that, sexual demons with no stop word and no "i'm not in the mood".

FlayWind

You can wreck most of the world in the worst save and the game would still continue on its chosen path. Like you get all the worst results. But aside from the wars which do have a lot of deaths and collateral damage it's not "oh shit we screwed up" but rather "we could have done better".
I am still waiting for payoff to the mountains of anti-fun that is a low level playthrough with no unique equipment whatsoever, no synergy skills and withtout Altina and Hilstara as well.

Cazador

When it comes to Qum, IMO at this point she still had massive abandonment issues and was worried that Simon would be abandonning her too. I say this based on what I remember from her whored dialogue during the first Gathering, something like "Qum wants to be Simon's but he gave her away".

Thinking about Varia, since it's our choice in yhe end, different players will have different reasons, hence the different possible answers to the little girl. But there's one that's missing: because of Aka. She's the one most vocally advocating for payback against Varia. At this point of the story it's not unthinkable that Simon would care enough about Aka to base his choice on hers. (Plus, she's hard as hell to get to proper rp value for the battle of Yhilin.)

It's true that Simon doesn't get much vocal opposition to his less savory choices. When Vhala confronts him when they meet, she's pretty okay with cockwhore Altina and dominated Varia. But for Varia, it's not unrealistic that he would get away with it, because she's universally disliked.

I'm okay with evil Simon not really getting opposition tho, because good Simon doesn't get opposed either. The game is already pretty linear, so it wouldn't be very fair to punish players for taking alternatives where they can. Also, Simon is one of my least favorite characters, even when playing "good" I find him highly questionable. It wouldn't feel fair to me that some of his questionable actions get criticized but not others, but having vocal opposition to everything he does would be tedious too. The current handling of criticism is a good compromise.